Well, Meg, I understand your point of view and I don't want you to change your mind.  I'm just going to answer a couple of your questions.

Meg:

I mean, isn't it more unnatural to have a mother and her girlfriend around or a father and his boyfriend around, than two mothers or two fathers? That also makes growing up uncomfortable for the child, feeling almost like the other woman or man doesn't want them.

No, it isn't more unnatural, in my opinion.  Having a mother and her girlfriend around (or a father and his boyfriend around) would be equivalent to a condition that millions of children around the world are already experiencing: it's the case of any child who doesn't know their natural father and live with their mother and their mother's new partner.  In most cases, they know that man is not their father but that doesn't cause them any trouble.

Meg:

And really, what is more unnatural than being raised in an orphanage? Wouldn't it be better for the child to have two mothers or two fathers who love and look out for them, than spending their lives with no one?

If orphanages were full of children and there weren't enough couples ready to adopt them, I would agree with you.  But I'm not considering that case, because, referring to Italy, adoption requests are far more numerous than the orphans available for adoption.  I don't know if it's the same in America, I supposed it was.  In Italy, for any orphan there will always be a list of straight couples in waiting list, so why should a judge choose to assign that orphan to a gay couple, exposing the child to some possible discomforts?  If the waiting list were empty, then the judge should consider an adoption by single parents or gay couples (which in this context are equivalent, according to my theory), but this case is so unlikely in my country that I didn't even consider it.

Meg:

Being a parent is all about loving your children. In order to take on the responsibilities of being a parent, you have to love them.

Being a parent is not all about loving your children.  It's more than that!  Of course you have to love your children to be a parent, but it's not enough!  What I meant was: you can't say "I love children, all of them, then I'll be a good parent".  You have to be mature as well, and many more things.

Meg:

Because that's like saying that if heterosexual parents decide to adopt a child then it's not really their's because they didn't have it via natural means.

I didn't say that.  But it's undeniable that adoption is a human, artificial way of reproducing a natural process, the process of parenthood, in any case where some circumstances have prevented the completion of that process (for instance, when natural parents have prematurely died).  And as an artificial way of reproducing a natural process, it should pursue the aim of being as close as possible to its natural model.  It was nature which decided that it takes a man and a woman to make a baby, not me.

Meg:

If we say that two women or two men can't adopt children and become parents, isn't that indeed saying that they are different than other people around them?

OK, let's say they're different.  Even though we admitted they were different, what would be wrong with that?  The word "different" doesn't equate to "bad".  Men are different from women as regards some aspects, old men are different from young men as regards some aspects, heterosexuals are different from homosexuals as regards some aspects, and so on.

Not being entitled to adopt children is not at all a gay prerogative.  For example, I'm not entitled to adopt a child, even though I'm heterosexual, because I'm not married and my country's law admits adoption for married couples only.  Then my government considers me different from a married man, but I don't feel discriminated because of that!

Oh, don't worry! While I may have been more inclined to agree with you on the subject of the death penalty, this I am completely believe in. :)

I suppose I'm still young enough to say that, as a child, cos I still am one legally, I'd much rather have two mothers or two fathers than one mother and her partner or one father and his partner. I'd feel like that my mother or father's partner didn't love me or care about me enough to want to be my other parent. I don't know if that makes sense or not?

But what about children all over the world? Do we limit ourselves to just our own countries? There are plenty of children who'd give everything for a home and parents who love them. Though I suppose that'd be a completely different circumstance, and gay couples wouldn't legally be allowed that either in quite a few cases.

You're absolutely right, in order to care for a child properly, there has to be a a certain amount of maturity. However, I think if you love your children, that will come naturally.

I remember telling you about the lesbian icon over here in the states, Ellen DeGeneres. Well at one point she acted in a movie called If Walls Could Talk 2. There was an interesting scene in the movie where her and her girlfriend are talking about her partner becoming pregnant. Degeneres' character says that she wants the child's father to have blonde hair and blue eyes cos she wants the child to look like her, too. And then she sighs and says that it's too bad that they can't be like other people and just say "oops, look what our love has done... look what we did by accident just because we love each other..." And she went on to say that heterosexuals don't realize how good they have it, they don't realize how lucky they are. And they really don't. I can't imagine how easy it must be. I know this may sound really stupid to you, but it's really sad when you're us. Homosexuality is not a choice, you know.

Well, I suppose I didn't phrase that right... no matter what, gays and lesbians will always be different. They're a minority. They always will be. They will never be just like everyone else. They can't be, no matter how much they want to be. What I meant to say is, should they be treated differently because of who they are sexually attracted to? Isn't that shallow? I'm not saying you of course! You support gay marriage and obviously are quite open to the idea, which is fantastic.  I appreciate that so much. It might sound dumb, but so many heterosexuals don't understand. I live it every day of my life. I just mean to say ... I don't know what I mean to say. I think I'm starting to not make sense.

Its interesting issue you know? i mean, personally im support. its making me crazy, what the people think. why they can decide about the life of other people? every one allowd to combine with who he/she wants, end of story. and the way that the people talk about the issue.. i think that's the main problem. and its not gay/lesbian marriage only. its a life problem.

Meg:

But what about children all over the world? Do we limit ourselves to just our own countries? There are plenty of children who'd give everything for a home and parents who love them. Though I suppose that'd be a completely different circumstance, and gay couples wouldn't legally be allowed that either in quite a few cases.

That's not the point in my opinion.  Whether we consider children in our own country or children all over the world, heterosexual couples waiting for an adoption will always be far more numerous than homosexual couples waiting for an adoption (simply because heterosexual couples are far more numerous than homosexual ones).  Then, why should a judge prefer a gay couple that could expose the adopted child to some kind of social discomfort?

We're not discussing about children's right to be adopted, we're rather discussing about who should have the right to adopt them.

Meg:

Well, I suppose I didn't phrase that right... no matter what, gays and lesbians will always be different. They're a minority. They always will be. They will never be just like everyone else. They can't be, no matter how much they want to be. What I meant to say is, should they be treated differently because of who they are sexually attracted to? Isn't that shallow?

Two arguments to answer your question:

1. If we lived in the perfect world, they shouldn't be treated differently because of who they are sexually attracted to.  But the perfect world doesn't exist yet and I guess even in the most open-minded environments a child living in a homosexual couple will have to face some social discomfort.
2. Don't forget that heterosexual attraction and parenthood are naturally related: however open-minded you are, you can't deny that.  Heterosexual attraction leads to natural parenthood, while homosexual attraction doesn't.  So nature itself decided to treat homosexual couples differently from heterosexual couples.  Is nature shallow then?  Maybe, but that's the way it is!
   

Meg:

I just mean to say ... I don't know what I mean to say. I think I'm starting to not make sense.

Oh no, you do make sense.  You always make sense.  Well... not exactly always, I'd rather say almost always, because I still believe your point of view about the death penalty does not make sense and I'd really like you to change it.

But if we exclude that topic, you always state your case with appropriate arguments.  I always forget your age when I read your posts and messages (I told you that a few dozens of times, by now).  Actually, I still don't believe you're 16.  You're probably a 40-year old man making fun of us...  Come on, how can we believe that a 16-year old girl loves Eurythmics?

Good for you Meg to have come to the conclusion so young.

I do understand  that most parents think it is a phase at your age and you will know better at college age

Alot of people are close- minded about the issue due to religious concerns.

I think it is up to the person if they want to get married.

Would help in the situation of  medical benefits  rights.

I think it would help with monogamy between a gay couple as alot do stray since no commitment involved.

I have seen 3 couples break up within 3 yrs of a commitment ceremony as not a real union.

I have a friend who is gay and I asked him about marriage/union for homosexuals and was shocked at his response.lol

He was raised strict Protestant and stated he did not believe in Gay marriage, that he was living in sin and knew he would have to ask forgiveness for his lifestyle.

Wow, I had no response to that.

^I'm glad to see that people are open to new ideas as well, but my reasons are obvious. :)

Luca

Because it should be based on how they can handle themselves as parents, not their sexual preference.

I have to ask, you believe that a couple should have the right to adopt before a single parent, right? Which means, you just believe in the conventional parenthood, no? :)

1. You're absolutely right. And as I've said before, the perfect world will never be. There can never be a society that doesn't judge or hate people based on who they are. You'd be amazed at how many racists there are in today's day and age.

2.  No. I can't. And yes, nature is totally shallow! :) I'm kidding. I don't know why I feel the need to argue this so strongly, lesbians can get artificially pregnant. And that is actually the better method. :)

Haha, you're never going to forgive me for that are you? I'm actually still unsure about how I feel about that...

What? No! I like being a girl! Can I at least be a 40 year old woman? But actually I know a lot of kids around my age who are die-hard Eurythmics fans. You'd be so surprised. Hey, just because we're young doesn't mean we have to have bad taste in music...

cranfan72

It's hard when you're unsure of yourself, too. Sometimes they can really convince you that it is just a phase, and you'll be normal one day.

And it is absolutely religion. My older sister and I got into an argument last night, actually, cos I lean towards being an atheist these days. I mean, I want to believe in a god, but if he supposedly is that close-minded, then screw it. I don't care. 

And there is obviously a commitment problem in the gay community. I think they've gotten to the point where they don't believe in love or any of it because they feel they have nothing to look forward to. I know, cos I don't really believe in life-long relationships anymore.

In fairness however, heterosexual couples don't make it work anymore either. Over 50% of marriages end in divorce, here in the States.

You know, that doesn't surprise me as much as you'd think it would. I felt the same way a little while back. I obviously don't feel that way anymore and I still don't think I'd get married (in Canada, I mean), but there was a point when I didn't support gay marriage 100% either.

Meg:

I have to ask, you believe that a couple should have the right to adopt before a single parent, right? Which means, you just believe in the conventional parenthood, no? :)

Yes, that's exactly what I believe: a heterosexual couple should have the right to adopt before a single parent.  I think it's better for the child.

Meg:

There can never be a society that doesn't judge or hate people based on who they are. You'd be amazed at how many racists there are in today's day and age.

I wouldn't be amazed, because I already know how many racists are out there.  For example, I'm a tireless football fan (well, you'd call it soccer instead of football, but I prefer the British name, because I really can't understand why Americans have called football a game mostly played with the hands!), so I go to the stadium very often and I'm always upset at how many racist insults are showered on black players by the fans.  Sometimes they make me feel like watching the games on TV, turning the audio off.

Meg:

Haha, you're never going to forgive me for that are you? I'm actually still unsure about how I feel about that...

I don't want to forgive you, I want to redeem you!
As I once told you, you're too intelligent to keep that position.  I'm glad to know you're still unsure about how to feel about that.  It means redemption is more than possible, it is likely, so I'll keep on working on it!

Meg:

What? No! I like being a girl! Can I at least be a 40 year old woman?

OK, granted!
Now that we know you're an interesting 40 year old woman, I can finally start courting you.
Oh damn!  I was forgetting that gay thing...

Meg:

But actually I know a lot of kids around my age who are die-hard Eurythmics fans.

Where on earth is that Wonderland?

Meg:

You'd be so surprised. Hey, just because we're young doesn't mean we have to have bad taste in music...

Really?  That's a great news!  I thought today's teenagers only liked rap, hip-hop and techno.  The world can still place its hopes in the new generation, then!

Honostly, I am too lazy to read all these posts. But I can tell you my opinion:

I am for gay marriages and for a right that allows homosexual couples to adopt children. When will heterosexual and homosexual relationships finally become equal? It makes me sad that an equality in this issue is not popularly accepted. (I hope you understand what I mean, in spite of my bad English)...

DavidL:

I am for gay marriages and for a right that allows homosexual couples to adopt children. When will heterosexual and homosexual relationships finally become equal?

Heterosexual and homosexual relationships will become exactly equal when nature will allow two men or two women to give birth to a child.  Until then, I'd like gay couples to have all the civil rights of heterosexual couples, except the right to adopt children as a couple.  As long as two men or two women can't be the natural parents of a child, I think they shouldn't even be the legal parents of a child.

There are also women or men who grow up their children alone because they left their partner or were left or the partner died. Those people have to work, care about an apartment or a house and about the child(ren). In most cases this works good.

Without the intense to attack single parents I think: If one human (who is alone unable to get a child) can grow up a child, why not two of the same gender?

Where is the problem of gay adoption? I rather don't think that all those children would become gay too, as sexual orientation is partly a case of heredity (is this the right word?).

DavidL:

Where is the problem of gay adoption? I rather don't think that all those children would become gay too, as sexual orientation is partly a case of heredity (is this the right word?).

If you say so, you're treating homosexuality as a disease that should be avoided.  The problem is not about the children who may or may not become gay too, because there's nothing wrong in being gay and then there would be nothing wrong if the child of a gay parent became gay one day.  I'm sure you absolutely didn't mean it, DavidL, but I'm afraid you ended up by saying something that sounds somewhat discriminating.

I don't feel like repeating the whole discussion, DavidL: both my position and Meg's one are clearly stated throughout our (long) posts.  I believe they're not too far from each other, actually, as the both of us support the legal recognition of homosexual relationships.  If you feel like (and if you have some time to spend!), you can read our posts and find out why I'm against the right to adopt while Meg is in favour.  I'll keep my opinion, but her arguments are sensible.

PS - Yes, I think "heredity" is lexically correct, but I don't know if homosexuality is a matter of heredity, because I'm neither a biologist nor a sexologist.  I'm just a software engineer, and unfortunately computers are asexual.  Unfortunately, because just think how nice it would be if a Windows-equipped desktop fell in love with a Mac notebook!

Tut Tut. I spent all of last week trying to find a gay friendly (which of course means gay) roommate in Pittsburgh. It's harder work than I thought it'd be, I'll tell you.

Luca

*sigh* I've known single parents who were far better than couples though, so I don't believe in generalizing. 

Oh absolutely. My sister came up from North Carolina to visit, and all her friends could talk about was how much they d blacks. I suppose it amazed me that in this day and age, people can still be so incredibly uneducated.

Well, I'll take that as a compliment more than anything else than. I'm a liberal at heart so eventually I'll probably end up on your side. :)

Oh, so I take it you find older women appealing as well? Perhaps we can have a platonic relationship where we check out other (and apparently older) women together, no? Wouldn't that be amusing... 

At most gay clubs apparently! Which of course is 'wonderland' to me.

No! Rap and hip-hop is only tolerable to a certain point. When it is politically motivated it can be quite interesting (granted, never as good as the ole rock 'n' roll), but all of that rap about is quite nauseating. I'd like to throw it all away but apparently I can't. 

Of course I didn't intend to treat homosexuality as a disease. However, the argument, the children could become gay is, sure, not my opinion, but an argument of ignorant and intolerant homophobes. I just wanted to declare this opinion as wrong.

However and of course, I tolerate your opinion.

The other thing - (Without the intend to insult someone) It is very likely that homosexuality is also a matter of heredity. (And again without this intend) Some people (although not many) have ever been gay, even if they recognize this already being adult.

PS: I am somehow amazed by the imagination of computers falling in love with each other. :)

I’m for it. Because if two people love each other and want to get married, they should. It’s not like you can stop two people from falling in love anyway.